Baker, Cable, Carmichael and Kramer quiz Fitzpatrick on Heathrow fiasco

6.40.42pm BST (GMT +0100) Thu 3rd Apr 2008

[Mar 27] Norman Baker (Lewes, Liberal Democrat): The events of the past few days represent a disgraceful inconvenience to passengers, reflect extremely badly on BA and BAA and are a national disgrace.

I notice that the terminal 5 website still shows BA's chief executive, Willie Walsh, describing it as "an extremely sophisticated baggage system with a terminal built around it." It reminds me rather more of the legendary sign at Oslo airport, which says: "We take your luggage and send it in all directions."

How could the new terminal open with cancelled flights, parking problems, staff shortages and non-functioning escalators on day one? Will the Minister contrast that fiasco with the smooth opening of St. Pancras International, and perhaps conclude that members of the public, when they can, might be better taking the train, particularly given the lower carbon emissions associated with rail?

The Minister mentioned compensation. Is he aware that the CAA has indicated that it believes that British Airways has breached EU legislation on passengers' rights by limiting compensation and expenses? What action will he take to ensure that BA provides its passengers with the compensation to which they are entitled as soon as possible?

What guarantee can the Minister give us that when there is a big surge in people wishing to travel by air this weekend, with the school holidays coming up, people will not be subject to cancelled flights, long delays and lost baggage at terminal 5?

On security, how did BAA and the Government get themselves into a position where their plans to implement the fingerprinting of passengers were criticised by the Information Commissioner and had to be withdrawn at short notice? Why were they not checked in advance? Will the Government ensure that we have good security at Heathrow without resorting to the type of police state measures that some of the Minister's colleagues are all too keen on?

Finally, does this not show that the Government are wrong to accept the word of BAA and BA and their assurances when it comes to major infrastructure projects of national importance? Will the Government learn that lesson and commission independent research into the proposals for a third runway rather than relying on BAA to write their consultation paper for them?

Jim Fitzpatrick (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Transport): In my past few answers I tried to rebut the allegation that BAA wrote our consultation document for us. That is patently not the case; it is a Department for Transport document and we stand by that. I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about the British Airways website. I am sure the company heard it too and is no doubt correcting the website at the moment. I shall not criticise BA for that being the last thing it is paying attention to, because the company is trying to make sure that the operation at T5 is corrected and improved to serve passengers. That is where the focus ought to be.

I believe I answered the point about compensation; the CAA is monitoring the situation and British Airways is clearly aware of its responsibilities under the EU denied boarding and cancellation regulations and is endeavouring to comply with them. Obviously, members of the public will be able to check on various websites for advice as how best to proceed.

On the hon. Gentleman's advice that people choose rail rather than air, we see rail as a major success story for the country. The Government are investing £88 million a week in rail travel, as we know. The public make their own decisions, and as rail operation has improved respective percentages for Manchester to London travel via rail or air have been reversed. However, that does not obviate the need for air travel to different parts of the world, or indeed different parts of the country, if necessity arises.

We are disappointed about what is happening at the moment, but we are confident that ultimately terminal 5 will be a massive addition to Heathrow and a matter of national pride. We all acknowledge that it is not there yet, but people are working hard to try to make sure that it is as quickly as possible.

. . Susan Kramer (Richmond Park, Liberal Democrat): I wonder whether the Minister recognises that the shambolic opening of T5 is just the latest in a series of operational mismanagement experiences from BAA and BA and other members of the aviation industry. In the past, they have used the excuse that lack of runway capacity has caused trouble at Heathrow. Does he recognise that it is time to be less gullible and not to take those statements, or the information that has been provided to him by the industry, at face value, and to understand that that is not the cause of the problem and that the whole expansion project needs to be thought through again?

Jim Fitzpatrick (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Transport): I thought that Her Majesty performed a magnificent opening of T5 on 14 March. The terminal's going live last week was obviously a completely different occasion. I have tried to answer the points raised by the hon. Lady in respect of the information, data, evidence and science that we have published in the consultation documents. It is our information, and we stand by those publications. This is not a matter of being gullible but of trying to protect UK plc.

. . Vincent Cable (Twickenham, Liberal Democrat): Since BAA is in a financially precarious position following the acquisition by Ferrovial, what are the Government's responsibilities at Heathrow in the event that the situation should deteriorate further, leading to possible insolvency?

Jim Fitzpatrick (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Transport): We are confident that Ferrovial and the investment in Heathrow is secure. We do not believe that it will go into insolvency or that there will be difficulty in its fulfilling the investment plans and the improvements to Heathrow to which it is committed.

. . Alistair Carmichael (Orkney & Shetland, Liberal Democrat): May I, too, pay tribute to the front-line BA staff whom I saw at Heathrow terminal 5 on Thursday? They were operating in exceptionally difficult circumstances, with little information and absolutely no sign of any senior management at that stage. Staff demoralisation is nothing new-it has been happening for years-and last week's shambles was just a consequence of that.

Will the Minister impress on BA the fact that there is tremendous frustration, particularly in Scotland, that every time BA gets it wrong, it is always the domestic services, especially those to Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen that are cut first? That is bad for Scotland, it is unfair treatment for Scottish passengers, and it must not be allowed to continue.

Jim Fitzpatrick (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Transport): The hon. Gentleman outlines the fact that the situation is unacceptable both generally and to his constituents in particular, and I fully accord with him that that is the case. I have said repeatedly in the past 27 minutes that we are doing everything we can to assist and ensure that the situation is rectified. I would quibble with him, however, over one small point. Notwithstanding the efforts and endeavours of front-line staff, to whom I paid tribute, both when I replied to my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and in my opening remarks, senior managers are working hard. When I was at Heathrow, I met Colin Matthews, Gareth Kirkwood and Mark Bullock, who had been working extended hours with ordinary staff members. They are responsible-they are the management-and were expected to be there, but they were working shoulder to shoulder with their colleagues, including volunteers, doing everything they could to put the situation right. I have no reason to doubt that that stretches through all levels and ranks in the organisations.